Turkey, the losers

[topum]

I feel so sorry for the solders on the ground, they are going to go through hell now, their lives as they knew them are over. And this has nothing to do with taking sides.

My dad always taught me not to hit someone who is already on the ground.


































The photos are not mine obviously.

Comments

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

Shocking but predictable, alas.

Romanian proverb says that after the battle, there are many knights arriving.

Some people fight and win, others come to celebrate the triumph and humiliate the losers.

[topum.livejournal.com]

Interestingly our hosts do not seem to know this proverb.

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

I heard it from a man born in Yasi in 1907. It´s from another epoch. And maybe my English translation from his Russian translation has gone far from the Romanian original...

And I suppose there are similar proverbs about postwar heroes in every language. In Russia we call it "to wave one's fists after the fight".

My dictionary offers a more or less equivalent in English: "shut the stable door after the horse has bolted"...

[bunn.livejournal.com]

That is horrible, surely counterproductive and cowardly.

My grandfather would have said, his most damning phrase: 'they are no gentlemen' :-/

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. But there both sides are far from gentlemanship. Yesterday some of these soldiers were shooting from automatic weapons to the crowd of civilians. They were not obliged to violate their soldiers' oath and follow unlawful orders, they could say "no". (I hope it doesn´t sound as I justify this disgusting mob justice.)

[topum.livejournal.com]

I disagree with the notion that being a gentleman can depend on how much of a gentleman the other side is or isn't. They lost, they are on the ground and are not dangerous now. I also do not know how easy it was for soldiers to say no.

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

"I disagree with the notion that being a gentleman can depend on how much of a gentleman the other side is or isn't."

I never said nor thought this.

[topum.livejournal.com]

Oh sorry, I must have misunderstood but then I don't see how the fact that both sides are far from gentlemanship or what these soldiers on the ground were doing yesterday is relevant.

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

I just say that the full picture of horror includes shooting into a crowd.

[(Anonymous)]

Got you. I misunderstood, sorry.

[topum.livejournal.com]

That's me above. I get logged out every 15 minutes or so for the second day for some reason.

I also do not know how easy it was for soldiers to say no.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I have only just discovered that Turkey still practices military conscription.

:-o

RE: I also do not know how easy it was for soldiers to say no.

[topum.livejournal.com]

This is awful. I hope for some international pressure for at least somewhat fair and humane trial and treatment for these boys given Erdogan's rage and apparent intention to show the nation how everyone who was involved "will pay the highest price". This is easily one of the most upsetting parts of this whole story for me.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Anyone can behave well towards nice people.

The real test, surely, is behaving well even when the other side break the rules. :-(

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

Not for a second wanted I to justify the other side.

[topum.livejournal.com]

I can surely understand the other side, if that's what you meant. Their anger is justified and understandable. But that is the very moment where max control needs to be exercised.

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

When we read about the Nice events, we have a side with which we can fully associate ourselves - ordinary people, the victims of an evil act. It's a sad situation, but our sense of good and evil "knows what to do" and we distribute our emotions very clearly: disgust to one side, compassion to another. When we deal with situations in which both sides act as villains (shooting into the crowd VS sadistic mob justice), we have mixed feelings towards both sides - compassion + disgust. It hurts, isn't it?

[topum.livejournal.com]

It does but for me it is not even about feelings at all here, feelings I can understand. It is about control over what you do based on those feelings however justified they are when the other side cannot respond and is not dangerous anymore.

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course, I thought that goes without mentioning at all. To hit a defenseless (and tied) man is a 100% bad thing to do. There is nothing to argue about.

When I said "it hurts", it was not about these people making their revenge but about you and me, observers who cannot have a good side to associate with...

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Understood! A bad situation all round.

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

This is exactly what I wanted to say.

[topum.livejournal.com]

You grandfather sounds like a gentleman.

My father always taught me that one of the most dangerous moments in any fight is just after you won, because you can easily do a lot of wrong things in that moment when anger is still there and fear is no longer there and the sense of triumph comes over you. And that's where maximum attention and control is required.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

A very wise teaching!

[beautesauvage13.livejournal.com]

Those poor men :(

Athena

[topum.livejournal.com]

I cannot imagine how it must feel to stare into that personal hell they realise they are on the verge of.

[beautesauvage13.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I can't begin to imagine it either.

So much hate.

When will people learn? Combating hate with more hate is not the way.

It baffles me at times, how human beings can become this hateful toward other humans .

Athena

نيازمنديهاي ايران

[niazmandihayeir.livejournal.com]

وای مادر به حالشون بگیرید
نيازمنديها (http://niazmandihayeiran.ir/)

[bichoose.livejournal.com]

For me personally and a bag of my vanity plus a few caterpillars in the undergrowth of the mind..these are the worst pictures..and most depressing i have seen this year that you have posted...am i stupid..have i read far to many victor and hotspur comics... why are the soldiers cowering where are there officers...think i had better close now....

[topum.livejournal.com]

I found these pictures the most upsetting of all the pictures I have seen from there too. I dread to think what is going to happen to these guys.

[diejacobsleiter.livejournal.com]

Did you notice the news about sacking almost 3000 judges? For all the cases related to the coup, there will be specially appointed judges. I don't believe in conspirology about staging the coup (no idiot would play such a dangerous game), but it looks like Erdogan is using the opportunities of the moment with maximal effectivity...

[topum.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, this was one of the first things that ran through my head, that Erdogan will use it to drive through everything he has been trying to now.

[mallorys-camera.livejournal.com]

Erdogan is "consolidating his base," as we like to say in the States.

He's preparing a formal extradition request for Gulen (who turns out to live a mere 100 miles from my home, in a town mostly known for being a Hindu Vedic healing center. How whimsical the world, eh?) I don't see how the US can possibly turn it down even if it's not justified. We extradite "terrorists" from Turkey.

[topum.livejournal.com]

I hope the US will not extradite Gulen though. The US often demands and gets asymmetry in relationships, it extradites from Turkey but it doesn't mean that it will be as easy or possible for Turkey to extradite from the US.

[mallorys-camera.livejournal.com]

Hard to know what the U.S. will do. Political expediency rather than culpability will play the key role.

[topum.livejournal.com]

If I were Gulen I'd probably fly to London.

[howlin-wolf-66.livejournal.com]

Terrible scenes... :-(

[topum.livejournal.com]

These are the most upsetting pictures I have seen from there.

[real-marsel.livejournal.com]

Awful pics.

[topum.livejournal.com]

Yes, upsetting photos.